Episode #32: Can Compostable Materials Displace Plastic in Manufacturing? With Dillon Baxter of PlantSwitch
In the latest episode of US Manufacturing Today, Matt Horine sits down with Dillon Baxter, co-founder of PlantSwitch. They explore the critical issue of industrial displacement, questioning whether manufacturing can produce an economically viable material to replace plastic. Dillon discusses PlantSwitch's innovative compostable materials, which are designed to run on existing extrusion, injection molding, and thermoforming lines. These materials offer a sustainable, biodegradable, and affordable alternative to traditional plastic products. Dillon also touches upon the challenges of reshoring manufacturing in the U.S., the complexities of customizing biodegradable materials, and the importance of federal support to compete with low-cost imports. The conversation extends to the growing consumer and regulatory demand for sustainable products, driven by environmental and health concerns, especially concerning microplastics. Dillon concludes by discussing the outlook for the compostable materials market over the next decade, highlighting the potential for significant growth and reindustrialization in the U.S.
Links
- PlantSwitch Website
- Dillon Baxter on LinkedIn
- Navigating Trump 2.0
- Veryable Is Revitalizing U.S. Manufacturing
- Sign Up on the Veryable Platform
- Veryable Shop
Timestamps
- 00:00 Introduction to U.S. Manufacturing Today
- 00:15 The Problem with Plastics
- 00:41 Introducing PlantSwitch: A Game Changer
- 01:16 Dillon Baxter's Journey and Vision
- 02:34 Challenges and Innovations in Biodegradable Materials
- 04:51 Economic Viability and Consumer Preferences
- 07:33 The Importance of Accountability and Education
- 14:13 Health Implications of Microplastics
- 16:56 Reindustrialization and Reshoring in the US
- 24:28 Future of Biodegradable Materials
- 26:00 Conclusion and Contact Information
Episode Transcript
Matt Horine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to US Manufacturing today. The podcast powered by Veryable where we talk with the leaders, innovators, and change makers, shaping the future of American industry, along with providing regular updates on the state of manufacturing, the changing landscape policies, and more. Today's conversation isn't about eco-friendly branding or feel good recycling campaigns.
It's about industrial displacement, and the question is simple. Can manufacturing build a material that beats plastic economically? For decades, plastics have dominated packaging, food, service, logistics, not because people love them, but because they are cheap. Durable and scalable. Every sustainable alternative has lived in niche markets and they're subsidized by some type of regulation.
Until now. PlantSwitch claims to have built something different, not just a green product, a drop in industrial replacement, a compostable material that runs on existing extrusion, injection molding, and thermoforming lines. And importantly, it's built here in the United States. So today we're not talking about reusable cups, we're talking about the potential for reshoring.
An [00:01:00] entire materials industry and building something completely different, and the person leading that charge is Dillon Baxter, co-founder of PlantSwitch. Dylan, welcome to US Manufacturing Today.
Dillon Baxter: Thanks for having me, Matt.
Matt Horine: Yeah, we're really excited to have you on because I think this is something that people hear a lot about and but your company is actually building it and doing it.
So I'd love to start out with the origin and your vision of when you founded PlantSwitch and what you're building now.
Dillon Baxter: Yeah, you touched on it, but plastic has been around for a long time and the reason is because it's a great durable, cheap material, and when the paper straw crisis came about, everyone knows the paper straw or the plastic straw on the turtle's nose, and that's when paper straws started popping up all over the place.
There was this pretty strong consumer negative reaction to the paper straw. The reason is it's a much worse product. That was one of the things when that started coming out, it was like, if we're gonna go to something sustainable, why does it have to be so much worse? And the reason was there just wasn't really the technology to support a better alternative.
By way of my background. I was briefly in investment banking, private [00:02:00] equity, and actually covered a company that was making a kind of new breakthrough plastic material and was like, wow, this is really fascinating. You finally, maybe there is the ability to make something better than a paper straw, but also still sustainable.
The more that I looked into it, the more I thought, wow, this is a potentially a massive opportunity. Had my own reservations about whether that company would be able to do it well, which turned out to be correct, but I was like, wow, this is something that I would really like to get involved in. And then actually had an opportunity with my co-founder to start importing and redistributing eco-friendly bostic alternatives.
And got into that, that allowed us to learn the market a little bit, allowed us to start having some real meaningful conversations with some big enterprise customers. And what we realized quickly was everyone wanted the same thing. Everyone wanted a product that was truly biodegradable, and the certification is home compostable, that was affordable and that functions more like a plastic product would.
No one wanted paper, no one wanted wood. Everyone wanted [00:03:00] that good consumer experience at the right price point with true biodegradability. So we said, yeah, of course. We'll go find that. We'll be your broker. We'll import it. We'll distribute it. And quickly realized as we searched the world for it, that it just didn't exist.
Every single plastic alternative in the world was either crappy, like a paper straw, or wasn't truly biodegradable. That's 95% of the products that you've seen in the market today. And then the ones that maybe were biodegradable or did have good quality were crazy expensive. And so there just really wasn't anything in the world that.
That three criteria of cost, affordability, and sustainability. And so that was that light bulb moment where we're like, okay, if we can go and create this, then this is something that has the opportunity to really change the way that we think about not just paper straws, but plastic and as a whole industry.
So off of that idea, we went to go raise capital and we raised seed round, and then we've raised some subsequent funding rounds. From there, we've put together a team of really smart and talented people, and we've been able to drive the innovation in the [00:04:00] right direction to accomplish that mission of creating truly biodegradable, high quality and affordable products.
It's been a long journey to get to where we are now, and we've obviously had some pivots across the way That guiding principle has been. At the forefront of everything that we've done and we're, I think that's resonated with our customers a lot and there's a big reason for the success that we've had over the last couple years.
Matt Horine: That's really great. I think you said something really important there because it starts with pragmatism, right? You get the consumer feedback of people trying to do something different than plastic. I probably put myself somewhere in the middle of the scale of that where you go buy food or you go buy something and ton of napkins.
Ton of straws, a lot of it just gets thrown away. And we talked about it a couple weeks ago. Even with like textiles, like how much of the waste and byproduct there is, there's a certain amount of garments that never even get made. You get worn. They just go straight to a landfill. And that's probably the same for plastics and cutlery and anything else that's made.
But what I get a sense of is that the plastic could be beaten from an economic standpoint, right? It's not just a consumer preference or an [00:05:00] environmental side, but you've unlocked a way to do this from the economic standpoint. Does that sound
Dillon Baxter: right? Yeah. And basically, people are willing to pay a premium for plastic.
A lot of people don't realize paper straws are three times the cost of a plastic. So not only are you getting this much worse experience, but you're also paying way more for it. And well, we did that price discovery initially in the business and realized, okay, consumers can pay and companies will pay a premium.
They just don't wanna pay five times. It's very reasonable, and we've developed technology that falls within that comfortable premium. We like to say where it's okay, we can actually make this switch at an enterprise level, right? If you're a, a major fast food or hotel or whatever organization. It might be a penny of straw, but that does add up over the course of 200 plus million units.
Right. And finding that happy medium of a premium, but not one that's too much is something that we've done a really good job of. And right now I think we're as competitive or more than basically any plastic alternative in the world.
Matt Horine: That's a pretty astounding [00:06:00] thing because you think about a lot of the plastics industry, right?
And how do they manufacture and scale at this? And it's a lot of times it's just on economics. And so to be able to combat that through this process, I think for people who are just hearing about the product or learning more about it, what does it look like to take the products that you put in like agricultural byproduct or waste and turn it into this kind of alternative that runs on existing equipment. I think that's probably a big question for those in the manufacturing space.
Dillon Baxter: Yeah, and that's another thing is if you're gonna have a competitive material, it's gonna be a lot more difficult to scale that material if you go have to reinvent an entire supply chain, especially one that's.
Been around for 50 years and it's pretty efficient and optimized. When we developed our material, we said, look, we need to have this be something that we can make on that existing infrastructure, and that's something that we've done. Obviously it's not the exact same, but it, you can still use the same assets.
Right, and that's important. Our process should put it at a very high level is it's something that actually does occur in nature. The polymers that we have created [00:07:00] occur in nature. Naturally what we've done is we've managed a way to create that. At a commercial level and at a commercial scale. And because we're utilizing inputs that are actually from agricultural waste streams, it allows us to drive the cost down into a place where it does hit that comfortable premium where any of the existing technologies really hadn't been able to get there.
So that's been a big differentiator for us as well.
Matt Horine: Yeah, that's huge. I think another differentiator, and one that I get the sense of, we've talked before and I've looked through your website and seen your product, a lot of companies, and you're working against the mold here on. Incumbents. So it's, you're looking at companies that slap a biodegradable label on things that may or may not be true to some degree.
I don't think it's probably like entirely untrue. How do you think about it in terms of accountability versus the messaging when selling to big enterprise buyers and people that you're. Looking to take on as their primary source and basically looking to displace people who have been putting that label on there.
But it doesn't necessarily mean what it says.
Dillon Baxter: Yeah, that's one of the more [00:08:00] encouraging things over the last five, six years of starting the business has been seeing that, especially enterprise purchaser become more and more educated. First, we're walking into conversations and we have to explain all the different levels of biodegradability and compostability and how that's greenwashing.
I think a lot of those conversations that we walk into are a lot more preloaded, education-wise, where they understand what they're looking for. They know that they want the best degree of compostability, which is home or backyard compostability, and that's one thing that. I think at the enterprise level you have the education, but at the consumer level, really not there.
And it's tough because it's complicated and you're not really thinking about what happens to your straw. Everyone thinks, oh, everything gets recycled. That's not true. Recycling barely works, and it only works for a few specific products and types of plastic resin. There's a thousand plus types of plastic.
You can only effectively recycle a couple of them. And so anyways, long story short, it's, it's tough because you have to walk the line of [00:09:00] education at the enterprise level and at the consumer level. And so that's something where we're gonna probably start investing a lot more and going to the consumer and saying, Hey, look like recycling doesn't work.
Industrial compostability is nice, but we don't have the infrastructure for it. You need to be aware as a consumer that whatever you're buying, whatever they're claiming, is something that will actually biodegrade in nature. And unfortunately, most things just don't. And a lot of things that are labeled as that don't.
So starting to see that become a little bit better, especially with certifications and regulations, but I'd say there's still quite a bit of ways to go before the average consumer really understands what's what. Yeah, that probably goes,
Matt Horine: It could be said about a lot of things in the consumer market, and we're seeing that, and we'll get into this later in the show, the macro trends of where consumers are generally finding out where their stuff comes from and what they believe they're buying may not always be the case.
But last question on this kind of manufacturing. Pragmatism that I think we could put the overarching label on, but what are the key manufacturing [00:10:00] challenges keeping Compostables from capturing 10, 20, 50% of the plastics market, and do you see it moving in that direction where there is a ton of market share to be had, but also the scalability is what, what kind of drives towards that
Dillon Baxter: Performance and cost are still the two primary things that would be holding it back. Not because the material can't perform the same, but just because with every single application, people don't really understand the complexity of plastics. Any plastic product is probably made using a different type of plastic or a different manufacturing process. And even at the design level of an actual, the product itself, like all of these things really matter and they've been optimized over 50 plus years.
There's a lot of customization within plastic products that you wouldn't think of because you think of them as cheap, durable, commoditized goods. When you're coming out with a competing material, you have to do a lot of customization if you want to go into each individual product line. And I think that's one thing that companies in our space have not done a good job of and that we've been pretty focused on, [00:11:00] is we wanna make sure that we're gonna go make the best fork and then we're gonna make the best straw.
Then we'll make the best lid. And we're not trying to do 20 things at once, and that's an easy trap to fall into with any startup. But I think especially so in this space. And the result of that is it's going to take time, like it's going to take a lot more time to really build up and capture plastic market share because of the individualization of each piece.
It would really be nice if you could just create a one size fits all solution and it works for everything, but that's just not the reality of the situation. And so I think that's one. And then obviously there's economies of scale. So again, you're competing with an industry and a material that's been. In existence for decades, and you've been around for a few years, you're just not gonna have those economies of scale.
To compete on a one-to-one basis, you have to be thoughtful about the applications in which you're targeting, but you can't be going after something that's truly commoditized where no customer wants to pay a premium. You do have to find those consumer preference segments like say, food packaging or maybe.
Cosmetics or [00:12:00] agricultural products, things like that where people really care about the biodegradability component and can pay that premium, but it's just not realistic to go to a major industrial purchaser who won't pay 5% more and expect that they're gonna adopt your product. Right now,
Matt Horine: it's a tough one with folks who just strictly buy on price and maybe there isn't that sustainability component behind them, or maybe they're looking to do it, but it's not always the best actors that are pushing that.
They may just be saying it. And to your point, understanding. It's the layers of complexity that go into design and into the actual material. People think they know plastics, but there's a million different types of applications for that. It sounds like there is consumer sentiment out there. I think there's a happy medium.
If you look at millennials, maybe Gen Z, even some Gen Xers. I think that the idea that things are sustainable and finding the path to those economies of scale, do you think we're heading towards. A timeframe where it's, you know, the sustainability message and these types of materials become default instead of the premium.
Dillon Baxter: Yeah, I, I think a hundred percent for an array of reasons. Consumer preference is what I always say, [00:13:00] is the number one driver, and that's supported by pretty much every study and statistic that's come out in the recent few years, especially to the younger generations. Consumers are overwhelmingly wanting to go towards sustainability, especially in plastics.
They want plastic alternatives. They're even willing to pay more for them. Again, there's a comfortable premium that's willing to be paid, right? There's always a line, but more and more con consumers are showing not just with their voices, but with their wallets that they'll pay for this. And that's one thing.
I think another thing that's gonna be pretty important is regulations. And so you've already seen regulations against things like plastic and single use plastics across the country. EPR laws are coming up and where you're gonna have potentially tax penalties for utilizing non biodegradable or recyclable plastic products.
And so those things will also encourage things in the right direction. And then on the supplier side, as we achieve economies of scale, as we get better at customizing things towards specific applications, I think it's very realistic that in 10 to 15 years you're gonna say, oh wow. Like we don't even use [00:14:00] plastic for these applications.
And we've transitioned to a better biodegradable material. But again, Rome wasn't built in a day and you're going up against something that's been around for a long time and, but basically every single factor is moving in that direction, and I'm confident that we will get there. No one wants microplastics in their body, so we gotta figure something out.
Matt Horine: The microplastics thing is a really big deal right now on X or LinkedIn. There's a lot of discourse on it. It's not something that's fringe like it used to be. People are really woken up to the, the health implications of it. Maybe causing other things, this domino effect of health complications and overall nobody wants it.
We didn't sign up for that when we bought lunch or when we did something to that effect. Or when you buy water bottles or those types of things. Where you get that from. Are you seeing a lot of, there's, we're gonna talk reindustrialization and reshoring on this show here in just a few minutes, but particularly around some of the sentiment with the Maha movement or the Make America healthy.
Again, type movement where there's a awakening at the consumer base level of people saying not only do we want it for [00:15:00] sustainability reasons, but for health reasons as well. I can't walk out of the house now with a, without a pla, with a plastic bottle. Or you don't think about the BPA, or you don't think about some type of health implication that if it sits in the sunlight too long, what am I putting in my body?
If it's just sitting there in storage too long, what am I putting in my body? So that's the overall question, is you see that sentiment, not just from. Environmentally friendly, but also from a health consciousness as well.
Dillon Baxter: Couldn't agree more, and I think that's going to be actually the biggest driver towards getting towards more sustainable packaging is that people don't want microplastics swimming around in their bloodstream, in their body, and they're finding it in a lot of other pretty unfavorable places too.
It's one of those things where the material of plastic originally was great for its durability, its cheapness, all these great things. Now that we're understanding the effects that it's having on our health, people are getting really serious about this, and it's caught the kind of more general consumer demographic than just saying, Hey, I really care about the environment now it's health influencers are getting more and more passionate about this. It's be, it's [00:16:00] entering the everyday discourse because we're linking it to things like cancer. We're linking it to inflammation and infertility. All these things, and the more and more that we start to understand the negative effects that it's had on our body, the more and more willing everyone will be to actually make that strong push towards more sustainable alternatives.
Matt Horine: Yeah, that's a really good point. And something that if you didn't care, you should now because it's something you know, to the effect of. It does impact you at the personal level. It's not the old, do you recycle? Not recycle. You had driveway debates with your neighbors before about the recycling bin. You put it out the day after, after trash day.
Where does it go? Maybe the same place. We don't know, but everybody feels good about it. But now we know that the health complications and risks of it are pretty significant, and that's a natural cycle. I think people get smarter over time. You might have an entrenched industry and then all of a sudden you see a bunch of complications and wait, what's the trend line?
Where's one thing stemming from? And that's the microplastics. Debate and conversation. In a nutshell, I think another major focus, at least on this [00:17:00] show and what we're seeing in American manufacturing, is talking about the potential for reshoring and some industrial strategy. I think we're recording on Monday the 13th.
We can't even talk tariffs because by the time we go to production, who knows what we'll be, what we'll be looking at. But I think there's a real question that I have and many others would. Do you think that this compostable material space. Could actually be a major driver of Reindustrialization because you look at what we make in this country, what was offshore, what can be onshore?
And there's this reawakening right now of people who are looking to rebuild it in America, or maybe they have great supply chains in the finishing processes here. What would it take for the US to lead the world in bio-based materials instead of chasing the low cost import route? That's, I think the big question over the back half of this decade.
Dillon Baxter: I think it's the same, and at least in my opinion, as for anything else that's more in the commoditized space, which is that if you're going to have a significant reindustrialization effort at the national level, it's going to take significant [00:18:00] support from the federal level, and that needs to come in the form of not just tariffs, but also.
Real economic support, real regulation support. So if the US government's gonna come and say, Hey, we're gonna make this a strategic priority. We're going to allocate significant capital to make this possible, and we're also going to slap you on the wrist. If you use something that's not this, then yes, then that can happen.
In absence of those things, I don't really see how it's viable just because you have other countries like say China, who will do that. They will say, we'll put the money where our mouth is. We'll directly influence the policy here, and we'll also enable the ecosystem that makes commoditized manufacturing possible.
And I think tariffs are like one tool in the toolbox, but I would like to see more of the tools come out if you're going to get a long sustained effort. And it's also something that we have to have a long term view on. It can't be something where we put a few more factories in the US in a year and we say, we did it.
This is gonna take. Five to 10 years at minimum, just to even see [00:19:00] a real noticeable difference in this space. Everything still is price driven at the end of the day. And if you're not gonna win on price, then you gotta be able to win on other things. And I'm hopeful and I really want that to happen. I think everyone wants some form of reindustrialization to happen in the us.
It's just gonna take even more than it already has gotten from the federal level.
Matt Horine: Yeah, I think that's really an important point that you make because everyone sees it through the lens of reshoring made in America versus not, and the real question and the driver of what has de-industrialized America over the course of maybe five decades.
This isn't something that happened in the last 10 years. This is something that's been going on minimum since nafta, but well beyond. You look in auto in the eighties and steel in the seventies. It's a big question for people because why did it do that? It went to low cost countries and it wasn't just labor arbitrage.
There was a lot of subsidization from those governments who trying to stand up a manufacturing sector in the first place. If you look at China from 1970 on in 1970, half the [00:20:00] cities weren't there. I can say that the population was, but it wasn't this modern economy. Where the government is basically recognizing the industrial sector is critical to their national security and their global reach.
And so they subsidize it and they do that in a way that makes us less competitive. And that's why this stuff moves overseas in the first place. So the two sides of that coin are, yes, we want it back, but there has to. And yes, we want our geopolitical foes may be punished in a way that levels the playing field through tariffs.
And I think that's reciprocal. But if there's no support on the backside from the standpoint of a national industrial policy. Some type of regulatory approach that doesn't look to the future and it just looks to bring things back the way they were. That's never happened in history because you don't bring things back the way they are.
They gotta be competitive. And to your point on price, that's exactly it. How are you navigating the macro environment right now? Because we've talked to a lot of business leaders, a lot of founders. A lot of people who have overseas supply chains, they have, they're trying to reestablish them here in the United States, or they're trying to optimize what they bring in for the finishing [00:21:00] process in the United States, which is just as important.
What are some of the big things that you're seeing right now and how have you, how have you guys answered that at Plantswitch?
Dillon Baxter: I think anyone with the international supply chain is feeling. Uncertainties. Right. And I think it's been a difficult year, but it's been manageable. I think we've done a good job kind of being thoughtful and not trying to be too reactionary.
It's really difficult to make long-term investment decisions when you never know when you're gonna wake up and check Twitter or X and there's gonna be a, a new tweet or post that alters the course of financial markets forever. Really hard to operate in that environment. We have. Most of our manufacturing and our supply chain is based out of China, and so we're very susceptible to any tariff increase that happens there.
We would love to nearshore or reshore, but in order for us to make that decision, we need to have some. Commitment to stability long term and know where those things are gonna be. The other problem too is in our industry, most of the things that we would need to source are still going to be located in China.
And so even if we were to try [00:22:00] to reshore a good significant chunk of our supply chain, we're still probably going to be prone to the tariffs and. Without knowing where those are going to be, we can't really underwrite anything. And so we're in a bit of a holding pattern and that's why I referenced earlier, in order for industrialization to happen back in America, we need more than just tariffs.
You can't just, that can't be the only stick that's being used. I think you're seeing it now more in some other industries. US government actually taking an equity stake in critical supply chain companies or taking a cut of sales into other countries. Like those are the types of things where it's okay, like you're starting to see a bit more of that.
Federal participation and reindustrialization as opposed to just saying, Hey, you now, consumer has to pay more for a good that comes from the country. That's what we would need to see and have that support in order for us to do it. But all of our customers want it. We want it too. It's just how much do you wanna pay for it?
Matt Horine: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I think that it mirrors what I've heard a lot in the market recently. Which is the consumer demand is there for it. People want this product. [00:23:00] And to make that a reality, you have to have the level of support, not just to have this tariff on something that is designed to bring production back, but you need the long-term stability.
And I think that's where we were getting into the, what's the industrial policy? How is this sustained for the long term? Which it shouldn't be the at the whims of the next administration 'cause there's always a next administration or there's always a next school of economic thought that makes sense for the time and hopefully that's starting to take shape.
You see a lot of players on X in the reindustrialization space, talking about bringing textiles back, talking about bringing steel production back. Those are hard industries as well, and it's one of those things that you look at the consum, the United States is the number one consumer of textiles in the world.
We get all of our clothing. It's been a 100% flip from, in 1960 we made somewhere around 95% of our clothing, and in now we import 97%. Those things happened because it went to low cost centers, but either because of labor arbitrage. Or those manufacturing processes that were being [00:24:00] completely subsidized by a foreign entity.
And so that's where we have to get the real question is how are we going to make sure that this sticks and stays in a way that's not only sustainable, but also satisfies consumer demand? 'cause that doesn't just go away and we can't just go back to the way we do things. 'cause I think you put a really nice exclamation point on that.
For paper straws, it's like a less quality product. For a super important mission that people want to solve this, but they don't want a less or inferior quality product. So that's the big question. If we're sitting here five years from now, what percentage of single use plastics do you think can realistically be replaced in the us?
That's the big question is what's your big prediction? Or over the next five years, how do you see the regulatory environment going?
Dillon Baxter: I think it's going to be more exponential, right? So I think it's still gonna be somewhat slow over the next few years. And then I think just looking at corporate policies, 2030 is gonna be a big year.
That's when a lot of the. Sustainability objectives or targets are set for is, hey, you can go look at the website for most of [00:25:00] these major hospitality or food service companies, and they have some form of goal saying we're either going to eliminate or reduce by X percent or single use plastics throughout our supply chain by 2030.
The thing that makes me a bit more skeptical about the viability of that is just knowing where the alternative supply chain is, and we're obviously doing everything that we can on our end to be the leader in that, but. I don't see a ton of others that are going to be able to fill that gap with the type of volumes that we're talking about.
I think that in 20 years you could see a hundred percent of single use plastics be replaced by alternatives. I actually think that's probably what's going to happen, but I think what's going to happen is you're gonna see over the next five years. A bit of a slower pickup. And then everyone more at the same time is all gonna realize, oh wow, this is a, this is happening.
And then there's gonna be a bit of an influx of capital of new companies and technologies that enter the space. And what we think about at Plantswitch is how are we gonna be well positioned for that flood? And trying to be thoughtful about, okay, let's build up that infrastructure so when that shift happens, truly we're ready for it.[00:26:00]
Matt Horine: That's great. And if our listeners wanted to find out more about PlantSwitch or what you're doing. Or check out the product for themselves. Where can they go to find you and maybe check out the product? Our
Dillon Baxter: website is PlantSwitch.com. Also, I'm fairly active posting on LinkedIn with updates about not just PlantSwitch, but the overall plastic alternative supply chain and regulatory landscapes.
If you wanna gimme a follow on LinkedIn and stay up to date with that stuff, that's much appreciated. And yeah, you can reach out to our company LinkedIn as well, contact us and yeah, you're looking to get plastic out of your bodies and out of your supply chains, then you know, we'd love to help.
Matt Horine: It was a great message that I think meets the moment. To stay ahead of the curve and to help plan your strategy, please check out our [00:26:00] website at www.veryableops.com and under the resources section titled Trump 2.0, where you can see the framework around upcoming policies and how it will impact you and your business. If you're on socials, give us a follow on LinkedIn, X, formerly Twitter, and Instagram. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please feel free to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave us a rating and don't forget to subscribe. Thank you again for joining us and learning more about how you can make your way.